That, in a sort of ass backward way was Michael's question. ROBERT: But luckily for the Vivarium and for our story, they had a guy. JAD: And I know I cant change those genes. We are working to provide transcripts for as much of our programming as we can over time. Barbara says they've reached out to her many times but they never heard back. LATIF: Oh you said it so much more diplomatically. LULU: Yeah, thats it. It might be a mixture. CARL ZIMMER: Kammerer puts on a suit and he walks off into the mountains SAM KEAN: Outside Vienna on a Rocky mountain trail. Visited Kammerer's lab when Kammerer wasn't there. PAT: Destiny says before she was born, her mom had four other girls. Mamaw was the one I'd come to see. SAM KEAN: What's happening during this time is that you're setting aside the stock of cells that you're going to draw on in the future to make sperm cells. ROBERT: And there were from the beginning. And Destiny was in the other room, sleeping or something, I'm not sure. OLOV BYGREN: Higher frequencies of heart attacks. That's 9, 10, 11. PAT: And in 1989, when the story we're telling now started, she was living in California, in Orange County. Theyd basically starve. Its just That's just how I've always looked at it. It all came down to this jar with his toad in it. In this episode, originally aired in 2012, we put nature and nurture on a collision course and discover how outside forces can find a way inside us, and change not just our hearts and minds, but the basic biological blueprint that we pass on to future generations. I agree with Lynn, that this program does perpetuate a stereotype. ], [ARCHIVAL Clip, Panel: What's the worst thing you have been called by one of your critics? Isaiah would sleep and he would scream. We talked to her for a little while and At a certain point the social worker pulls out a stack of papers. SAM KEAN: If you have a starving daddy, it turns out that the baby actually gets some sort of health benefit. And then that baby would stretch and stretch, and it would give a little more stretching to its baby. JAD: Thats just the cold logic of Darwinian evolution. [laughs] Can you say, "Never, ever?" They decided to explore this question. And I think that no, I didn't plan on it but I wouldn't take her back for anything because she made me better. In this magazine article, Barbara even said, quote, "We don't allow dogs to breed. PAT'S MOM: Radiolab is produced by Jad Abumrad. CARL ZIMMER: She is nine. But this was a really, really tough place to grow up. And I know fate is gonna give them a couple random mutations in those genes. The cheapest estimate is the work that needs to be done in 14 days. On the Radiolab website they define the show as follows: "Radiolab is a show about curiosity. JAD: Yeah, like you can help them overcome you. What exactly happens between 9 to 12 that makes this big difference? Get personalized recommendations, and learn where to watch across hundreds of streaming providers. He was miserable to look at. She started to wish again that she could have a daughter. So this whole debate, two totally different ways of seeing life. Support Radiolab by becoming a member of The Lab today. Females seem to hate laying eggs in the water, but is that the end of the story? That's a lot of people. LATIF: Its so good that it makes you not want to trash the house, you know what I mean? FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: Putting this into context, you know, you have a rat mom and they have about 16 to 20 babies. ROBERT: Or how much humidity it preferred. PEJK MALINOVSKI: And we have a lot more grain here. Frankly, this makes being 9, 10, 11, 12 like a rather crucial. I don't like to upset people. 2K views almost 2 years ago 48:23 Love it or hate it, the freedom to say obnoxious and subversive things is the quintessence of what makes America America. PAT: Yeah. [ARCHIVAL Clip, News: Barbara Harris's solution is simpler than anything else out there. A lot of times that's not the case. And so, they just had to hold on for the entire winter. You just haven't evolved for this and there's no way you can, at least not quickly. My name is Jean Kean. BARBARA HARRIS: And when I found out the bill didn't pass, I just thought, "I have to come up with something else. And right now, I'm student teaching. LYNN PALTROW: I think I was really horrified and terrified. Like Id be like, Weve got the keys, were gonna trash the house., Anyway, we think about that all the time and I was just talking to Lulu about that and she was just like, You know, theres a radiolab about this.. All these chemicals racing by crashing into it, sticking, and one of the bits that gets covered up is that little bit that makes the proteins that create a maternal instinct. JAD: We all know this, that there are cycles of abuse or whatever. SAM KEAN: And these effects, in fact, were so strong that you could trace it to the grandfather. Taylor Swift's Never Getting Back Together. And I was a waitress, I worked for IHOP for over 30 years. Where we sought, they will find. But she says, you can tell right away, just by looking, that some rat moms don't lick their kids a lot. Most toads, he says, love to stay in the water. Thats like, I mean, that seems like a thing that would be frightening. JAD: And I know fate is gonna give them a couple random mutations in those genes. PAT: For me, this whole story really shifted PAT: When I started spending some time with Destiny, Barbara's 22-year-old daughter. JAD: Well think about what makes proteins. Thanks to Olov Bygren, reporter Pejk Malinovski and Karin Borgkvist Ljung, and I'm a senior archivist at the National Archive in Marieberg in Stockholm. And even though they look basically nothing alike. ROBERT: I wonder. ], Like you said, when you were in your addiction like she is], I didn't say I'm God. When Kammerer published his results initially, a bunch of scientists immediately began to say "Wait a minute, hold on here, it would be nice if life was like that but life isn't like that. They didn't have grains. And um PAT: Doctors would later explain to Barbara that Destiny's mom had been addicted to drugs while she was pregnant. JAD: It's writer, Sam Kean again, and here's, he says, what you need to know about the midwife toad. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: I think that's where Lamarck's ideas can be woven in and make some sense. Can you say oh my goodness? In this episode, originally aired in 2012, we put nature and nurture on a collision course and discover how outside forces can find a way inside us, and change not just our hearts and minds, but the basic biological blueprint that we pass on to future generations.Support Radiolab by becoming a member of The Lab today. Sat her on my lap, with her little dress on and her little curly hair. There was a newspaper called The Daily Express and they have these headlines that come out. That you're just renaming it. If Barbara had gotten to Destiny's birth mom, Destiny, Kalia, this moment, none of it would exist. And she says oftentimes the women who want help have a really hard time finding it. So he's got to live his life as a toad with all this baggage on him? And that advantage, whatever it was, because it starts with one individual, and then it gets passed onto the kids, and then onto their kids, it would take a long, long, long time to spread through the whole population because, generally, that's how evolution works. We spay them. DESTINY HARRIS: I do mean that. More brain cells? My name is Veronica Zimmer. We inherited this beloved show that we first fell in love with as listeners. ROBERT: And that advantage, whatever it was, because it starts with one individual, and then it gets passed onto the kids, and then onto their kids, it would take a long, long, long time to spread through the whole population because, generally, that's how evolution works. ROBERT: But, this hour were gonna fight this sort of sad sack feeling of inevitability and impotence. PAT: And at a certain point, I noticed over my shoulder Barbara's crouched down and she's got her phone out and she's taking a picture of this just perfect little scene. He actually named his daughter Lacerta, which is a genus of lizard. Yeah, thats it. JAD: Serotonin gets into the brain cells, and according to Michael unleashes MICHAEL MEANEY: A whole series of molecular events inside the cell. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Is that too old?" PAT: If Barbara had gotten to Destiny's birth mom, Destiny, Kalia, this moment, none of it would exist. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: Why? Were less prone to diabetes. She started to wish again that she could have a daughter. ROBERT: That's Sam Kean again. You know what they're going to go do with that money. SAM KEAN: He was really one of the first grand theorists in biology. They've seen it and they've repeated the experience. PAT: Barbara says they've reached out to her many times but they never heard back. So we did stop. So moms licking activates serotonin, and it's released onto brain cells in the hippocampus. How much of you will echo into the future and how much of you won't? You just have to weigh it, is it worth it? And so, her name is Kalia. His famous example was giraffes. KARIN BORGKVIST LJUNG: Cancer. I mean, the idea that they could be constrained by their DNA, that maybe one of us gave them a bit of DNA thats gonna hold them back? BARBARA HARRIS: Sounds bizarre, but it's a solution. He said, "If you were a boy, and you starve between the ages of 9 and 12, and then you went on to become a father, then a grandfather, your grandkids". Olov told us, take heart disease. She and I snuck away from the children into her office. A really good radiolab about this called Inheritance. But I'm going to give them a basin of water. Then 275 words will cost you $ 10, while 3 hours will cost you $ 50. ROBERT: And youre saying that part of the DNA is covered up? You know, the fact is that taking care of animals, trying to keep them alive in a building is not an easy thing, especially if it's 1903. [laughs[ Exactly. Let me say this again. Push yourself and you got it.". It says, "Race of Supermen." JAD: That's against the rules. OLOV BYGREN: Hi, Olov Bygren. DESTINY HARRIS: To her, I matter. When rats have more of this protein, they will act more motherly. ], I'm going to go out into the streets and offer addicted women money to use birth control. But, this hour were gonna fight this sort of sad sack feeling of inevitability and impotence. That was nice. LATIF: And as of 11:01 a.m. on Tuesday, when were recording this, we have not broken the show. Its something I still think about all the time. JAD: I find myself thinking like, Okay, I know these kids have their genes half from me, half from my wife. Okay, you want to say bye? This was a really radical place at the time because you have to remember that people studying animals up till now, they were basically studying preserved specimens, and so on. I know what I'll do, I'm going to set up a terrarium for them and I'm going to make it hot, really uncomfortably hot. OLOV BYGREN: They didn't have grains. In my naive mind, I didn't have a clue what a big deal this was. PAT: Because when a woman uses heroin while she's pregnant, the fetus gets hooked on it too. You know? He was miserable to look at. It's such a surprising result. Maybe more. But it failed. These are women who love their children, who sought help. So. He had one remaining midwife toad. Because theyre reaching for the tops of trees. Radiolab is supported in part by the National Science Foundation and by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. Plus, find other cool things we did in the past like miniseries, music videos, short films and animations, behind-the-scenes features, Radiolab live shows, and more. So that's fun. Kammerer, for one, was sent off to work as a sensor for the Austrian military. To her, I matter. JAD: So now, the genes can make the proteins that make the rats a good mom? This is real physical-chemical interaction between what's going on in the environment and what's going on with the DNA. ROBERT: Interestingly, the church has also kept track of the farmers' SAM KEAN: How much they were growing each year. The bit of DNA that will give this baby when it grows up the instincts to be nice to its baby, and lick that baby. SAM KEAN: You feel kind of hemmed in by what your grandfather did? PAT: As Barbara made the rounds on the daytime talk shows, the reaction was split right down the middle. He's the guy who told us about Olov's work. JAD: So, in the end, where do you come down on this? CARL ZIMMER: Is your wife going to hear this? She's 20 months old. ROBERT: I think that makes a lot of sense. That you can, somehow, by just being nice to them, reading them stories, or whatever, that you can somehow break them free of all that. And I knew that the only way I was going to get a daughter was if I went and became a foster parent and asked for one. JAD: So this whole debate, two totally different ways of seeing life. Here, Kammerer's was saying, "You can do this even on a physical level.". PAT: So we did stop. Never mind, you're stuck with small boobies." Is it a big town? Its just That's just how I've always looked at it. Did you know there is a part of this show is gonna be like crazy breaking news, like happened yesterday and we already have a deep take on it? CARL ZIMMER: At this really marvelous place called the Vivarium. So much can happen after that. RADIOLAB Podcast "Inheritance" Homework Assignment Name: Rohan Desai PSUID: 9 6241 8529 Listen to the first three stories of the "Inheritance" Radiolab Podcast (Control + click on link to access podcast. [chuckles]. Like, I mean, as far as positives can go, I think I hit the jackpot. And when she had a baby. That was it. LULU: Did you know there is a part of this show is gonna be like crazy breaking news, like happened yesterday and we already have a deep take on it? JAD: Visited Kammerer's lab when Kammerer wasn't there. It might be a mixture. Radiolab: Parasites Transcript For copyright reasons we can't provide a transcript of the WNYC Radiolab feature on parasites. I had a little basketball for her. And at first, it didn't go so well because, you know, if you're a land toad and you're trying to have sex in the water, it's kind of hard. PAT: But along with the support came attacks, particularly as drug-addicted women began to sign up. That's how we ended up with four of them. That kind of 30 years? Researchers have found evidence of structural. That's how I've always looked at it. ROBERT: Are you near the Arctic Circle or OLOV BYGREN: My home village was 10 miles North of polar circle. If you start smoking when you're 10, 11 something like that, you end up having children with more problems. So if they saw somebody who was starving as a kid in 1820, they could then see, "Well, when those people had children and grandchildren, did anything change? BARBARA HARRIS: Aw, you blew him a kiss? What happens, it'll get stuck to one little part of the DNA and now that little bit of DNA And these things are called, apparently, methyl groups. ROBERT: But the results are very clear. Because he couldn't hold formula down. Push yourself and you got it.". No, she was an oops kid. Well, that's the good news, but unfortunately there is some bad news here. SMITTY HARRIS: He was just You know, most babies are kinda peaceful, he was never really peaceful. You're not leaving this hospital unless you have long-term birth control.". Never mind, you're stuck with small boobies." I had a little basketball for her. ROBERT: And they didn't have these on land? We had an expression here, "Dig where you stand." ROBERT: Okay. If you're a starving boy between 9 to 12 years old, now it doesn't matter a whole lot what happens to you after this, your grandchildren will have one-quarter the risk of heart disease. Radiolab - Transcripts Subscribe 187 episodes Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. And these effects, in fact, were so strong that you could trace it to the grandfather. PAT: The moment I really felt like, "Whoa," was when we started talking about PAT: The little baby that we keep hearing in the background of everything. Do you have any theories for how this tongue is tickling the DNA, or whatever it's doing? OLOV BYGREN: Well, for cardiovascular disease JAD: Olov told us, take heart disease. Well, there was an expert on reptiles named G. Kingsley Noble. LYNN PALTROW: Well, her explanation is that these women are having, in her terms, litters of damaged babies and society forever will be responsible for them. JAD: Don't you see, somehow the mother's tongue is getting all the way down in there and going [mumbles] and messing with the baby's DNA. ROBERT: He was a born nurturer and he adored animals. ROBERT: Cause we were talking to science writer, Carl Zimmer, and he told us that back in the early 1900s, this tension between Lamarck and Darwin got extra tense. I think the Swedish data are really, really strong, and very reliable. But then, a few years would pass, crops would bounce back. They all go down to the DNA, surround that methyl and just, pow! So by now it's 1994, and Barbara is thinking You know? The reason they're more aroused is that the mom's licking activates the release of adrenaline and noradrenaline in the pup. Maybe more. So some scientists began to ask Kammerer if they could look at his toads. PAT: And that's when things would start to get out of control. Birth mother's name was actually the same as me, so, Barbara. And when methyl groups stick to that part of the DNA, the maternal instinct is effectively turned off. And he said, "Barbara, I'm not buying a school bus." The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information into music. [foreign language]. We inherited this beloved show that we first fell in love with as listeners. ], [ARCHIVAL CLIP, Jad Abumrad: How bout this one?]. PAT WALTERS: Mamaw was the one I'd come to see. So we're going to leave you with a story from our producer, Pat Walters, about one woman's radical A few months ago, Pat made his way down in North Carolina, to a small suburb outside of Charlotte to visit this family. PAT: Could you just tell us what you are doing now? I got to say this is spooky. You know? SAM KEAN: But this was a really, really tough place to grow up. And very often, one of them will just go crashing into the DNA and it'll stick there like a barnacle or a glob of peanut butter. Assuming that you can survive the ordeal, and you grow up, and you have kids of your own, the data seems to say that your kids will benefit from your suffering. PAT: Last I heard she was living on the streets in LA. JAD: I initially felt very hopeful and excited about this research because it seems to suggest that a body, one body can respond to an environment and change and be flexible in a way we didn't think was possible. ], Sterilized? I'm Sam Kean's dad. These people are paying millions of dollars to take care of your children!]. They began to grow these all puffy things on their hands. If they see methyl groups sitting on that bit of DNA, they are pissed. LYNN PALTROW: I'm Executive Director and Founder of National Advocates for Pregnant Women. She said, "Thank you so much for the gift, I bought my son an excavator truck, remote control and some summer outfits." I find myself thinking like, Okay, I know these kids have their genes half from me, half from my wife. JAD: Well, if a mother a rat mother licking her baby can have such a profound effect, basically change the expression of the genes in the baby, well that's hopeful. Life is hard.". But that you supposedly can't get to. PAT: I like you, I get the sense that there's a lot of warmth in you. OLOV BYGREN: It's a small forest area, very beautiful. 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